User talk:Arrogant Bastard
Archive 1 Physway: User page Only difference i really see is the minibars. Life Guardian 06:53, April 23, 2010 (UTC) :I added some other bars too. I'll probably add a lot more stuff that was deleted earlier on and sync it more with the guru build.--Arrogant Bastard 06:55, April 23, 2010 (UTC) ::Oh, i wasn't aware that the MoP was originally in the article. And i guess you made the cleaners into regular bars instead of minibars as well. Life Guardian 06:57, April 23, 2010 (UTC) :::There was a ton of stuff originally. I guess it was too much clutter, but removing it all was not the solution and resulted in the massive clusterfuck it is now.--Arrogant Bastard 06:59, April 23, 2010 (UTC) ::::Nah, originally there was a ton of builds listed in the overview(just in text), but no actual bars. Not much has changed from then until now really. Life Guardian 07:04, April 23, 2010 (UTC) :::::I had all the ideal melee bars (full size) and usage guidelines (although now i prefer the smaller bars and links). There were a lot more builds listed in overview, but before I could post them ban threats + deletion. There were a few midline damage dealers that could replace the SoS and/or one melee to make set up even faster (e.g. FD Mes/Nec, Imbagon, AP Mes Nuker, etc.).--Arrogant Bastard 07:24, April 23, 2010 (UTC) ::::::Of course, ranged allies aren't advised because they won't benefit from SoH. Paragons and Rangers can run melee weapons though. Minion Excluded 13:03, April 23, 2010 (UTC) :::::::The fastest UW run I did was with me as the Imbagon. I think it's because TNTF (very constant upkeep with essence) allowed for a larger margin of error--less people died (people love overextending in UW for some reason). Also Imbagons can pull off mid combat res while keeping shouts up. Although, the fast times may have been due to the use of no PuG and/or not using the ER who dies the most (ME).--Arrogant Bastard 16:13, April 23, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::lal ^ :::::::::Not very clever. Everyone knows you die the most at ER.--Arrogant Bastard 18:58, April 23, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::::Your idea of everyone consists of about four people though :p Tis but a laugh Minion Excluded 20:52, April 23, 2010 (UTC) :::::::::::Doesn't change the fact that you die as ER often. L2P ty--Arrogant Bastard 21:47, April 23, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::::::Tanks need to learn how to cover healers....tbh---[[User talk:Xtreme1ne|'X']]TREME 23:24, April 23, 2010 (UTC) :::::::::::::Tanks don't exist in physway ;) That's the SoS' job; however with this mesmer update I think we'll use them instead. Migrane seems like it could be overpowered, and even Ineptitude, depending on blind duration. Minion Excluded 23:59, April 23, 2010 (UTC) Moving this off of Phen's talk Personally, I'd love to see the build succeed. I'll remove the WELL tag myself for now (that's not to say someone else can't re-add it), but I'm expecting a ~40 minute screen within a week or two. (I expect that should be more than enough time if this is as easy to form as you claim it is.) As for achieving the 40 minutes, I don't care if you use every con in existence, that's still enough to convince me. ··· Danny So Cute 06:47, 24 April 2010 (UTC) :Oh, and regarding votes - generally, we know what works around here. PvX has been in business for about 4 years, I think? The fact is that there is heavy bias towards builds that we know work. Theorycrafts are generally frowned upon, but if you can prove us wrong, as Athrun Feya did with Manlyspike, we're more than happy to work with you. ··· Danny So Cute 06:49, 24 April 2010 (UTC) ::The build is not theorycraft. It has been use extensively for at least a year. The reason numbers come up a lot is because some people make claims without any evidence. For example, a few people kept raging about the OoV build because without any proof they said it couldn't maintain enough energy. When the build is actually used, most players will find there is often a surplus of energy. ::So from this perspective it looks like the critics are continuing to bash the build in order to save face, because when presented math, game mechanics, offered to come along on runs, and even screen shots, they still regurgitate the same crap. ::About the screen shots, I'll get to them at my own time. It sounds as though you are skeptical of my claims despite that half of them (pug team times) have already been confirmed by the screen shots myself and minion have posted. I thought you PvX'ers were supposed to be able to analyize the builds without actually have to play them. If so, then it should make sense that 1-1.5hr runs can be cut down by 20-30 minutes when using a more experienced team. ::For example, the FoW run I just posted used 2 heroes, an overkill of defense, did not avoid unnecessary mobs, and ~5 min break halfway in. Using the attuned PvX analytical thinking methods, would it not make sense that such a run could be reduced by up to 30 minutes?--Arrogant Bastard 07:33, April 24, 2010 (UTC) :::whats your excuse for 50min deep then? - ''Athrun''[[User talk:Athrun Feya|''Feya]] - 08:07, April 24, 2010 (UTC) :::we don't have any proof of a 5-minute break, unnecessary mobs, or griffons drawing aggro. when we see the 40, then we'll talk. '···''' Danny So Cute 08:10, 24 April 2010 (UTC) ::Athrun: What do you mean by excuse? It looks like you read the guru page where I originally posted it and explained how the team did. We have stated from the start that this build is flexible in what it can take since the general idea is to buff melee. That said, there will always be the "ideal" build you can bring for each area. You guys say PvX'ers know how to analyze builds without actually playing them....so analyze. Based on what has been posted on the build page (excluding your edits), how does the "ideal" team compare to what is actually used? Further utilizing your superior build analysis skills, you should be able to at least estimate the speed difference between the two. ::Either way, 54 minutes for a non-sc Deep run is pretty reasonable. ::I don't understand why you are taking issue with me saying "X and Y could be improved on and probably reduce the run to Z time"...People who make the SC teams you seem so found of do it all the time. In fact, anyone who wants to make a good build should be doing this, its how you improve the build and strategy. ::Danny: You don't have to believe me if you don't want to. I'm sorry I don't take PvE that seriously, but its isn't unreasonable to take a 5 min. break for 1-1.5hr runs. However, if you look at the screen shot, you will notice I have additional Protective Bonds being maintained which supports the griffon aggro claim. ::As far as the screen shots you are demanding, they will show up whenever I feel like doing FoW (testing for Meleemancerway occupies the majority of my time on GW). ::But since you guys are experts at analyzing builds and such, lets put your skills to use. ::Get your people on calculating this and I'll get my team of scientist on this shit immediately.--Arrogant Bastard 09:08, April 24, 2010 (UTC) :::The issue there is that none of us give a damn if we trash a build. The burden of proof lies on you. ··· Danny So Cute 09:48, 24 April 2010 (UTC) :::I brought it up because there's absolutely no reason a Deep run should take that long, especially if just a few people do it "regularly" (and I probably know the deep better than anyone, having been part of the team behind 12man in 12mins, 6man in 13mins and 3man in 21mins records). 50+mins doesnt become acceptable by saying "it's not a speed clear", even back at the release of EotN times with a variant of Build:Team - "Steel Wall" Deep Group were getting 20-25 minutes, this was about a year before anyone had ever uttered the word "speed clear". :::Also, i can't describe how counter productive removing the tank and adding a shedload of melee builds is in the deep. Firstly, there's huge quantities of blind (which can be removed, given, but all that still takes time) and you're not taking advantage over the fact there are large, groups which can be pulled and nuked extremely easily. If you disagree, then any tank you've ever ran with is obviously doing something wrong so here's a hint at what they should be doing. There's so much more to PvE (especially elites) than just maintainable dps. - ''Athrun''[[User talk:Athrun Feya|''Feya]] - 09:58, April 24, 2010 (UTC) ::::In the Deep, you don't need a tank or four with 0 damage builds; the only time you really '''have' to lure properly is in the... Fith room? With all the chillblains knocking about. But the spirits ball things fine, they can tank, they will have CB cast on them and we won't. That's how it works. Minion Excluded 10:50, April 24, 2010 (UTC) :::::the above statement is an example of why i honestly cant take you seriously. - ''Athrun''[[User talk:Athrun Feya|''Feya]] - 11:02, April 24, 2010 (UTC) :::::Hi. I ran the deep 3x in an hour with Athrun, we had 2 or 3 tanks. That's all. --''Chaos? -- 14:45, April 24, 2010 (UTC) You are still comparing Physway to a speedclear. If the standard for rating a build is "is it faster than a speedclear?" then you have quite a few builds to start removing, including your infallible Discordway.--Arrogant Bastard 20:18, April 24, 2010 (UTC) :It might help if you cleared up what exactly Physway is for, then. So far, you've said it's for speed clears and that it's not for speed clears, and, really, either way it's pointless. However, if you'll clear up which it's for, then we can tell you why it's bad. ··· Danny So Cute 20:35, 24 April 2010 (UTC) ::The build says what it is for: Elite areas and harder dungeons. --Arrogant Bastard 20:42, April 24, 2010 (UTC) :::Tell me which builds would need removing from elite areas and dungeons since they are not faster than a speed clear. You will find there are none. Discordway is not a speed clear build, it is a general pve build.--[[User:Relyk|'Relyk']] talk 21:38, April 24, 2010 (UTC) :::In which case, it would be defined as a speed-clear type build and judged as such. ··· Danny So Cute 22:39, 24 April 2010 (UTC) ::::That is retarded. This build is a general team (by general I mean that it only needs minor modifications to be used in different areas) that can easily complete elite/hard areas that can really only be surpassed by specific SC teams. This build offers an alternative to those who do not wish to SC. Now maybe all you do is h/h or SC, but there are plenty of people who don't confine themselves to just these methods of play. ::::Relyk, if you are saying Discordway shouldn't be compared to SC teams, then why is Physway (a non-sc team) being subjected to this comparison?--Arrogant Bastard 22:51, April 24, 2010 (UTC) :::::Go post it on Guru then. PvX doesn't store shit that isn't worth storing. You seem to have at least come to understand that, even if you haven't accepted it, which I can respect. ··· Danny So Cute 23:01, 24 April 2010 (UTC) ::::::The build has been on Guru. Closed-minded individuals as yourself simply repeat the same tired argument: "Its not h/h or SC GTFO". Just a question, do you actually play GW for fun an--Arrogant Bastard 00:30, April 25, 2010 (UTC)ymore or is it just endless grinding with h/h and scs?--Arrogant Bastard 23:05, April 24, 2010 (UTC) :::::::GW hasn't been fun for 4 years. All I do is bot anymore, tbh. If I really feel like it, I'll play PvP for some fun. ··· Danny So Cute 00:19, 25 April 2010 (UTC) PvE, supersrs bsns--TahiriVeila 23:07, April 24, 2010 (UTC) :Clearly. H/H or SC or GTFO ty gg--Arrogant Bastard 23:08, April 24, 2010 (UTC) ::Right, because taking longer-than-necessary amounts of time c-space button mashing your way through brainless mobs with awful bars is wicked fun. Do you have downs?--TahiriVeila 23:12, April 24, 2010 (UTC) :::To be fair, all the builds you guys praise so much "mash buttons" as well. Is balling all foes and having a group of nukers press 1-2-3-4 any fun? I'll take it that since you resort to personal attacks my critic of your Sacred Cows hit a soft spot.--Arrogant Bastard 23:44, April 24, 2010 (UTC) ::::Because you don't use discordway to clear elite areas actively. The only reason to keep an 8 man team is to clear elite areas since the rest of PvE can be completed with simple h/h. Stop making the analogy that since they are both teams, they both function for the same purpose--[[User:Relyk|'Relyk']] talk 23:57, April 24, 2010 (UTC) ::::Spamming infuse and 1-2-3-4 is much more fun than balling foes and 1-2-3-4. Jesus, I can't believe I've been so lost all along. ··· Danny So Cute 00:21, 25 April 2010 (UTC) ::::::I kno amirite?--Arrogant Bastard 00:30, April 25, 2010 (UTC) Relyk I don't know what more I can say. Physway isn't a hero team. It isn't a speed clear. If these are the only methods to which you play PvE, then that's a shame.--Arrogant Bastard 00:30, April 25, 2010 (UTC) :The problem, then, lies in it being much slower inferior than general H/H PvE builds. (Also, the lack of smiting skills on your ether renewal bar made me sad, but maybe I'm oldschool.) -- Armond 00:53, April 25, 2010 (UTC) ::The only advantage h/h has is that is it faster to form (if that is what you meant by slower).--Arrogant Bastard 00:58, April 25, 2010 (UTC) :::Slower was a typo, thus the strike. -- Armond 01:43, April 25, 2010 (UTC) :::: ER smiters were the tits! old school indeed! >>Jayson<<< 01:55, April 25, 2010 (UTC) :::Then the only way Physway is "inferior" to h/h builds is that it takes time to setup rather than just loading heroes.--Arrogant Bastard 03:34, April 25, 2010 (UTC) ::::Well you're also forgetting the fact that you're playing PvE in a game built for PvP play. But that's a whole other problem completely--TahiriVeila 05:03, April 25, 2010 (UTC) :You won't find any pugs doing general PvE, that's what heroes are for. You won't find any pugs doing elite areas, that's what speed clears are for. I don't know what world you're in, but unless you can change the habits of the entire PvE community, it's not happening. If that wasn't the case, the build would be viable. You should stop arguing semantics and show quantifiable proof that this has some use in being on PvXwiki, because I don't see anything except text.--[[User:Relyk|'Relyk']] talk 05:29, April 25, 2010 (UTC) ::I must have imagined all the runs I have done then, silly me. I usually use the build for my friends list and guild, PUGs are there to fill in empty spots to reduce setup time. ::About screen shots, a few have been posted on the talk page, which is now moved to Minion's page. --Arrogant Bastard 05:42, April 25, 2010 (UTC) :::Tbh, it's probably not appropriate for PvX then, since it's more custom made for you and your buddies. There's a reason we don't store random top guild builds (like that SoI mesmer with crazy ele snares StS used for a couple days) - they're designed for specific players and this site is not. -- Armond 08:21, April 25, 2010 (UTC) ::::You believe this to be "random"? I agree Signet of Illusion is fairly random, although I don't see how you rose to that conclusion in this case. The people saying people don't PUG anymore, they're wrong. People who say everyone does speedclears are *wrong* and haven't been paying attention. Hello Glaiveway. Hello Barrage/Pet. Hello Manly Spike. Lolwut? They look rather balanced and general in my opinion. But that's just me; I can't wait for another witty riposte from someone telling me I'm wrong. Minion Excluded 13:05, April 25, 2010 (UTC) :::::People only pug for ZM when they arent good enough to do it with their on heroes. The only time you ever see someone looking for a slow clear is because they wanna push their mesmer or something that's not in the common team through the elite for HoM. I agree that "manly spike" is general but we have no build called "manly spike" on pvx. We do however, have "fow manly spike", "doa manly spike" etc, these are not general, these are really quite specific in usage and optional skills (then we have a manly spike guide to summarise it all). bp is for tombs therefore not general. glaiveway is for doa, again not general. - ''Athrun''[[User talk:Athrun Feya|''Feya]] - 14:13, April 25, 2010 (UTC) ::::::Ok, so you change the name and add a few variants; all of a sudden it's not general, it's special. Minion Excluded 14:23, April 25, 2010 (UTC) ::::::: sidenote: manly way really isnt manly at all...having a few big beefy guys hide around the corner and let the poor little asian kid get a pounding, before jumping in all "american style", and "saving the day", real manly men would just have run in them selves ball deep and clubbed the fuck out of everyone.. tho i understand the naming convention and need for a catchy line. :D tho i think "asian scapegoat suprise prison rape way" is a little too much for genpop, its more accurate xD >>Jayson<<< 15:19, April 25, 2010 (UTC) :::::::^ that and write a '''detailed' walkthrough for the area. You could potentially do that for physway if you wanted (and them sum it all up in a guide article which would look similar-ish to the original physway article, see the manly spike or cryway builds for an example of this) as long as you're realistic about what pugs can achieve/what skills they might have available/who is around to pug with you. One thing physway has over other builds is its safe for pugs so exploiting that properly might keep it out of WELL. (p.s, jayson, it was named manly spike because warriors are more manly than the previous meta, mesmers :p). - ''Athrun''[[User talk:Athrun Feya|''Feya]] - 15:21, April 25, 2010 (UTC) :::::::: ^yeah if you only say one thing about phys way its thats its got ''huge damage with monstrous fail safe defense! ofc that gives mental ease of use for pugs/newbies, way way way more leeway for errors that a sc, and a LOT of room for more exp people to really play aggressively and hit some quick balanced team times with almost zero chance of failing! and river dance IS manly xD >>Jayson<<< 15:45, April 25, 2010 (UTC) Yo, we already discussed this - . As I've already explained, that's because we had a serious discussion concerning the vetting policy and decided to be more diligent when enforcing votes; however, we decided against doing it retroactively. If you believe we are missing votes that are violating policy, then please bring them up. [[User:Karate Jesus|'Karate']] [[User_talk:Karate Jesus|'Jesus']] 02:02, 26 April 2010 :Most of the votes for Physway before it was deleted (good and bad ratings) didn't seem to be sufficient based on the vetting policy. :By comparison, my insufficiently explained vote for Discordway was removed within a few hours.--Arrogant Bastard 03:41, April 26, 2010 (UTC) ::Welcome to PvX, Arrogant Bastard! ::PvX prides itself on being an openly corrupt and by no means democratic organization. Enjoy your approximately 3 weeks before you decide your time would better be spent trolling retarded furries or masturbating to eel soup. ::Sincerely, ::··· Danny So Cute 03:59, 26 April 2010 (UTC) :::That's not witty; it's retarded.Minion Excluded 08:40, April 26, 2010 (UTC) ::::Reading behind the humor, he speaks nothing but truth. --''Chaos?'' -- 09:24, April 26, 2010 (UTC) :::::The fact it's undeniably true makes it all the more retarded; it's not funny.Minion Excluded 10:14, April 26, 2010 (UTC) ::::::X is true = X is retarded = X isn't funny? I can't really see the reasoning behind this, but surely it'll open up to me once I contemplate upon it for a while. ::::::Well, it probably is retarded, but it doesn't make Danny any more or less of a retard, it just makes the state of this site pretty shitty, which is a universally accepted fact, but at least the level of our build documentation is relatively high, I'd say. --''Chaos?'' -- 12:23, April 26, 2010 (UTC) :::::::suprised no one has been called austic today tbh...and id say 3 weeks is pushing the limits of most peoples patience :D>>Jayson<<< 14:21, April 26, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::You mean autistic? And has it been that long since this debate began? Minion Excluded 23:21, April 26, 2010 (UTC) :::::::::yeah thats what i said...dyslexic! :D and i got no clue...(proofreading fail as it happens :P) >>Jayson<<< 23:29, April 26, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::::General pve team builds have always been controversial since ideal teams aren't always realistic teams. Also, lolpve--[[User:Relyk|'Relyk']] talk 00:34, April 27, 2010 (UTC) Meleemancerway It's so fast for a 2+6 hero team, I blame Splinter.Minion Excluded 02:31, April 26, 2010 (UTC) Discordway DPS? IT has the fastest cause shit dies in a sec on all classes. Rethink please. OR tell me to gtfo or you don't know shit about PVE.---[[User talk:Xtreme1ne|'X']]TREME 17:54, June 16, 2010 (UTC) :If you didn't know Discordway had low DPS (Damage Per Second), then perhaps you shouldn't be trying to lecture me.--Arrogant Bastard 18:11, June 16, 2010 (UTC) :X, I'm not saying one way or the other about the build, but you do have some factual inaccuracies; DPS isn't how much damage you deal during one second (though I can see how it could be interpreted as such), but it's a term for how much pressure you've dealt over time, say, 30s or 60s. Discord's low DPS is compensated for by dealing the damage as a spike, scoring easy kills. --'DANDY ^_^' -- 18:17, June 16, 2010 (UTC) ::Thanks but I am aware of DPS. This just kills very fast and has I high DPS. I was referring to that it kills so quick that one would have a hard time quantifing the rate that it kills at. Now that is done can you please explain why you changed your vote cause it wasn't in the description. Uny is cause it can happen anywhere...the only argument is that it is harder for Wars or players with low energy. This can easily be achieved with some modifications to the player build---[[User talk:Xtreme1ne|'X']]TREME 20:20, June 16, 2010 (UTC) :::DPS is pointless in pve--[[User:Relyk|'Relyk']] talk 20:58, June 16, 2010 (UTC) You are really beyond help if you don't understand that Discordway has low DPS. I'm gonna assume you're a troll though since you keep saying the same circular and invalid argument. Have a nice day.--Arrogant Bastard 21:27, June 16, 2010 (UTC) :attempt at humour /failed...attempt at dipolmacy /failed...you need to stop and think about your vote please. I would like you to explain to me why you voted the way you did for you didn't reword when you changed your vote. Now please do so in a kindly manner.---[[User talk:Xtreme1ne|'X']]TREME 21:46, June 16, 2010 (UTC) I changed the rating because I read what Athrum said about the ones that were removed and it made sense so I changed it. Also, I won't be answering any further questions about my vote because if you can read, I have explained my stance already (and I don't find it necessary to explain it to you). --Arrogant Bastard 22:06, June 16, 2010 (UTC)